Kindness

Julia: Okay. My name is Julia Kanter. I live in Chicago. I currently work for Expedia, where I'm a senior product manager. Right now I manage a product called Scratchpad, and also a track of products and features called investment tools, where we basically think of how we can help our travelers invest in their journey with Expedia in a better way, that helps to answer their questions along their journey.

Suzanne: Where I want to start is with your journey into product management, because on paper, it looks like you just went from school into product management, which is atypical.

Is there more to that story, or you wanted to be a project manager and then you sought that out?

Julia: No. I definitely didn't even know the job existed. I think at that time, it was a very, very new role that wasn't really around. I think in college, I worked at a number of different internships that were varied from advertising to e-commerce.

When I found a job at American Express, basically, the way their project ... the process worked was, if you were an intern and they offered you a job, it was like a med school process, where they gave you a number of options and you determined which one you wanted. It was a matching process.

At the time, they had three teams available, and one of them was new product development within their loyalty space. That just sounded very appealing, because it was the most open ended, and they pitched it to me in a way that ... we don't really know what we're going to be doing, but we'll be creating new products.

That just sounded cool as a 21-year-old, so I went for it. About a month in, it was when mobile was really coming into play, so it became clear that really, all we're going to be doing is focusing on mobile product. It really happened as a happenstance.

Suzanne: What was the first product that you built, or participated in building then?

Julia: Another ... I think a lot of people's stories are a mix of skill, but also luck. In the early part of my career it was a lot of luck, because I happened to join this great team, and we knew we wanted to build a mobile journey for the membership rewards program at the time. But, we didn't know what we wanted it to be.

My job on the team at the time was really, first, let's figure out what we want to build. We looked across a number of different paths we could go down, and we determined, based on really ... a number of factors at the time, that we wanted to build out a gift card shopping space within the mobile journey.

As it happened, the woman that should have been doing that job actually decided to leave the company. There was really no one else on the team except for me to take it up, fresh out of college. That really was the first product I built. It was a mobile Web experience for shopping and purchasing gift cards through your loyalty points.

Suzanne: Is it still around?

Julia: I think it's still around, but it's been iterated on ... thank goodness, because it was not a very good experience from the start. It was great for two thousand ... I don't even remember at this time, 2006 to 2007. It was great for when it started. But, nowadays they've iterated on it quite a bit.

Suzanne: You just got called up to the majors. Somebody got out on a knee injury and then you ...

Julia: Exactly.

Suzanne: ...got to go up to the majors and hit a homerun the first time out of the gates. What was the biggest learning lesson from that particular project, if you can remember back?

Julia: Oh, man. I think it was that I learned how much I really enjoyed working with a number of different types of people. Because, at American Express, at the time they had product managers, but they were always focused on the card products.

You could be a platinum card product manager, or a gold card product manager. But, this was something totally unique for the company. I had the opportunity to work hand in hand with our creative agency, because they didn't have in house UX at the time. Hand in hand with our engineering team, which was in Arizona at the time. I think I really got to learn how much I loved that, just working with so many disciplines.

Suzanne: How did you explain to your parents and your family and friends what you do as a product manager.

Julia: That is such a good question. I don't think I've figured it out yet. But, my new spiel that I'm trying out is, I start with a physical product, and I help them understand, okay, you have this TV that you like, and there's somebody probably at that TV company, at Samsung, that thought about, do people actually want this TV? Is there a market for it? Is it going to be easy to use when we build it? Is the technology we're introducing for it going to scale? I do that, but for digital products. That's my new spiel. It's working 50% of the time.

Suzanne: Do they start to glaze over after a while?

Julia: Yes.

Suzanne: They're just like, "Okay, that's interesting." But, I guess, if you say, "I work at AmEx." Then, there's this traditional cache of, ooh, they're an established company, “good for you dear. Amex sees like a reputable company.”

Julia: Very much so.

Suzanne: You've worked for a lot of reputable companies. You went from AmEx, and then you were at J.P. Morgan Chase. Did you just get obsessed with banking?

Julia: No. Definitely quite the opposite. But, I actually had an amazing boss at American Express, who I'm still in touch with. He's awesome. He's at Google now. But, his advice for me at one point was, anytime you're looking for a new role, try to keep 50% familiar and 50% new. That way, you don't fall on your face, but you're still learning and being challenged.

When I decided that I wanted to leave American Express for, really, reasons of location at the time, I thought that keeping the financial services space would help me, but I moved to the B2B side of the business, still doing mobile product management, but at J.P. Morgan Chase.

Suzanne: That's actually a great piece of advice. In a way, it's kind of like what a pivot is.

Julia: Yeah.

Suzanne: One thing stays constant ...

Julia: Exactly.

Suzanne: ...and another thing changes.Then you got into travel.

Julia: Yes.

Suzanne: You were at Orbitz, now you're at Expedia. Was it, I love travel, how can I get in there?

Julia: I wish it was that easy. I love trave. I never really imagined that I would be working for a travel company, although I'm very happy I do. It was really ... at a certain point I decided I wanted something new. I didn't want to be in financial services anymore. I loved product management.

I was in Chicago already, and I had heard so many good things about Orbitz. It was frequently rated the number one ... one of the top 10 companies on GlassDoor as a tech company. I decided to see if they had an opening, and fortunately they did. I got to join as a product manager at Orbitz. I don't remember how many years ago, but at that time, yeah.

Suzanne: Because you were coming from New York.

Julia: I was actually already here in Chicago.

Suzanne: You were already in Chicago.

Julia: Yeah.

Suzanne: Okay. Did you have to, when you moved from one market to another, rebuild, because now you're the new kid on the block?

Julia: Yeah.

Suzanne: You did?

Julia: Yes. Totally.

Suzanne: Chicago is like, "I don't know how it worked in Manhattan, but you're going ...

Julia: Big city girl.

Suzanne: ...to pay your dues.

Julia: Yeah, it's really tough. I really ... especially when I see people further in their careers. Fortunately, it was still early on that it wasn't too tough to break away from that network. But, I have a lot of respect for people that take a big risk in their 40s or 50s moving to a totally new market, because you really do have to start from scratch in a lot of ways.

Maybe not so much today, now that people are moving around a little bit more, but it really felt like I didn't know anybody.

Suzanne: How is the ... I'm interested in Chicago because we're here. This whole season of conversations is focused on Chicago product managers. How is it different from New York? We'll let the New York people speak to this later in the show. But, for now, you get an opportunity to shine a light.

Julia: Well, I hope no one will be mad. I'm still friends with a lot of my college friends. But, I think in Chicago there's a certain humility that comes with being here. You're not as obsessed with some of the pieces of conversation that become quite popular in New York, like, how much do you spend on rent? What neighborhood do you live in? Do you know this person?

I think there's a lot of more social cache, almost, that comes with living in New York City, and I imagine the same thing is true in Silicon Valley.

Here, it feels very honest. That's probably the only way I could describe it. It's very honest, it's just true to, are you doing a good job? Are you a good person? Are you somebody that I want to work with?

It's much more focused on the real things that matter.

Suzanne: Yeah. Humility is a good word. I would echo the sentiment. I've been having the good fortune of meeting a bunch of great folks here on this tour, and everyone is just so generous, and kind, and even the leadership style seems to be really rooted in: How can I empower my team? How can I help people find their right relation.

In L.A., it's interesting, because part of the reason we started the show there is because that's where I'm based out of. It's nice to shine a light on ... everyone talks about San Francisco and Silicon Valley, and there is an interesting tech scene that emerges here.

What is the tech scene here? Is it close knit? Is it still finding its own identity?

Julia: I think it's a little bit of both. It definitely is still finding its own identity, although I think ... I hope that the next five years will be pretty important for Chicago. It does seem like a lot of companies are realizing, holy smokes, there's a really big center of talent here that's not as competitive as Silicon Valley.

We do see companies ... Google just opened an office here. Amazon, LinkedIn, Facebook, they all have smaller offices here. Obviously, Expedia has a pretty big presence here.

Suzanne: I think I passed Twitter on the way to your office.

Julia: Oh, really? There you go, yeah. I think a lot of companies are realizing that, wait a minute, it really actually makes sense to be in Chicago, because there's so much good talent, and there's not as much competition yet from a lot of really well known tech companies.

Suzanne: All right. Let's talk about Expedia. Remind us your title, it's fancy. It's senior global product manager.

Julia: Oh, yeah. I'm just in product. We could say I'm a product manager.

Suzanne: I don't think we should ignore that global part of the title. It sounds very worldly. Is it just because it's a worldly company you have to be global?

Julia: I think so. I don't know where that came from, but I guess I'm glad it's in there. That was actually one of my goals. I never knew what I wanted to do, but I knew that I wanted it to be international, and to deal with a lot of different cultures and people.

I love that part of Expedia, that even not just the customers that we deal with, but even the employees that I talk with every day are in, every day, different countries. That's really, really cool.

Suzanne: For our listeners' benefit, Scratchpad is essentially a feature within the Expedia ... Let me back a step. I'm assuming everybody knows what Expedia is. Maybe everyone doesn't know. What is Expedia?

Julia: Oh. What is Expedia, Inc? Or what is Expedia. Com?

Suzanne: Now I have no idea. What is ... What are both?

Julia: Well, Expedia.com is a website or a mobile app that you can go to to help you get places, to shop for different travel products like flights, hotels, cars, whatever you might need to complete your journey.

But, that's just one brand. Expedia, Inc. Global is a collection of brands and businesses that includes Hotels.com, Trivago, there's a big distribution business, there's a huge supply part of the business. It's almost hard to fathom how big and how complex Expedia, Inc. is, in terms of the different solutions that people think about every day to make sure people can easily go where they want to go.

Suzanne: It's an empire, basically.

Julia: Well, I think, but it's a ... a good one, for the better. Serving for the better. It's ... one of the smaller companies I've actually worked with when you compare it to AMEX or Chase.

Suzanne: How many folks at Expedia, Inc., approximately?

Julia: I think, approximately 20,000.

Suzanne: Wow. Gosh. A lot of big companies. Orbitz is part of ... you were at Orbitz, they're part of the Expedia, Inc. good empire?

Julia: Yes. About ... I'm iffy on the timing, but I think about a year and a half ago, Expedia acquired Orbitz Worldwide, which was also its own mini empire, you could say, that had a collection of brands, like Orbitz, Cheap Tickets, Ebookers, also a distribution business.

We were acquired. We were headquartered in Chicago. But, now a lot of us serve the greater good. There are still people that focus on the individual brands, but I focus on a product level, on solutions and features that can serve a number of brands.

Suzanne: Is Scratchpad an asset of Expedia, Inc. that's leveraged across multiple properties? Or it's a module or feature of Expedia dot com?

Julia: It is not specific to Expedia.com. There's an organization within Expedia called the Brand Expedia Group that contains brands like Expedia, Orbitz, Cheap Tickets, Travelocity, and actually all those brands benefit from Scratchpad and the benefits ... the user benefits we provide.

Suzanne: All right. Tell us how it works.

Julia: Okay. Scratchpad's actually evolved quite a bit and is in the middle of an evolution. It started, really, as a way to remove the need for paper notes. About four years ago, there was a lot of ethnographic research done, and we realized that it wasn't the Dark Ages, but yet still, people were keeping paper notes as they were shopping for travel, and writing down what they searched for, writing down the prices.

There's really no need for that today. We have technology that can do that for us. Scratchpad ... at the time, I was not on the team, so I can't take credit for it. But, it was created to really eradicate paper notes, and be that memory for the traveler to remember what they searched for, help them know when prices have changed, compare one versus the other.

It's been a great benefit to travelers for the last four ... three or four years.

Suzanne: You said it's in the middle of a major overhaul or change. What is Scratchpad 2.0, or whatever point 0 that it is?

Julia: We're actually ... You could already see this starting on Expedia.com. But, we're realizing that it's one thing to remember all of the searches that you have done, but it's another thing for you to be able to save something more explicitly. You might not need to remember all the 30 flights that you searched for, maybe just the one or two that you might actually book, or that are more specific to your needs.

We're starting on this journey to really help be the place where our travelers can collect options of interest to them, be able to share that with friends, but still to remain informed. Because that's always been a key facet of Scratchpad, is the ability through, not just the web piece, but even emails, to remind, and different notifications to remind travelers they're ... Hey, here's what's changed, maybe you want to take a second look.

Suzanne: This is interesting in my mind, because you're essentially creating a product that lives in different properties. Then, each of those properties presumably have their own user segments, and different needs, and different brand association.

How does that influence the work that you do, where you're essentially thinking about a core solution that's going to solve the same need, presumably, across multiple properties.

But, then, how is Scratchpad on Expedia dot com maybe different than Scratchpad on ... Would it make sense on Orbitz?

Julia: You could even say Expedia, but in Japan.

Suzanne: Okay.

Julia: Because even Expedia. Com has about ... or, Expedia brand, has about thirty-ish different points of sale, one for each country that we operate in.

Suzanne: How do you manage for those different geographic markets, as an example?

Julia: That's a really good question. It's not unique to my product. I think really any product manager within Expedia, Inc. thinks about this. Because you're right, there are cultural differences, or geographic differences that might impact the experience you create.

I think, within the global product organization, which is where I operate, we try to make sure the solution we're creating from the start is as global as possible.

However, we are really fortunate. We basically have these ... They don't think ... they don't call themselves this, but I call them the six sigma team. They'll come in and really think about is the solution we have right now, does it make sense for Japan? Or, does it makes sense ... for the region in which we're operating? Is there something we're seeing in the data that tells us the traveler needs something different here, an adjustment.

We'll actually work with them, and they'll do the more regional testing that might be needed.

Suzanne: Okay. how is it structure ... There's 20,000 people. Obviously, you don't interface with all 20,000. Tell us a little bit about the structure of your direct team.

Julia: Sure. I work with, like any product manager, a number of people in analytics, and UX, and technology, and other also different product managers. On a day to day basis, I am talking with my technology team.

Really, with Scratchpad, we're almost an open source platform within Expedia. There's a number of partner teams that I work with every day that want to leverage our data, or leverage our web client to try ... try and test something. I'll talk with them on a daily basis, our UX team, yeah. I think ... Does that answer your question?

Suzanne: It answers it in part. I want to go a little deeper. How many ... You're a senior product person, do you have a fleet of junior product manager?

Julia: No.

Suzanne: No? Just ...

Julia: No. The model ... Every company has these different titles. I think there are a few senior product managers at Expedia that do have one or two people reporting to them. But, the general model is, really, everyone's an individual contributor, working with different teams until ... within Expedia that you get to this director level.

Suzanne: Okay. You own your product.

Julia: I own my product.

Suzanne: Then you have the specialists that help you bring the ideas to life?

Julia: Yes.

Suzanne: Okay. Is everybody here in Chicago with you?

Julia: No one is here in Chicago with me.

Suzanne: Nobody?

Julia: It's just me. Well, there's a lot of people in the Chicago office, as you've seen when you walked through. But, none of them actually work directly on Scratchpad.

I'll interface with some people every now and then, like a partner team for example. There's a lot of people here from our llodging team that I talk with. But, on a day to day basis, I actually don't work with anyone in Chicago.

Suzanne: You're essentially managing a geographically distributed group?

Julia: Yes.

Suzanne: Is your team then, also spread out across multiple different locations?

Julia: Yes, and multiple continents.

Suzanne: Talk to us about how that affects your flow in the day to day.

Julia: It's been an adjustment. I've always really worked with ... as I look back, I've never been fortunate enough to work with a team where a hundred percent of everyone is in the same location.

There's always been teams either in India, or Arizona, in different cities or countries, from me. In this case, it's probably to the extreme, where I'm here, but my core technology team is actually in Seattle. There's some people in Montreal. Then, even recently, as of a few weeks ago, there's a big team I'll be working with in Brisbane, Australia.

There's also a lot of folks that I work with in London, but they're not directly on the Scratchpad team.

Suzanne: Does that result in you having to be awake 24 hours a day to get a task done?

Julia: No. I couldn't even ... I couldn't do it. I think you have to set boundaries for yourself and what's important to you. For example, I actually like it, because I'm able to come in a little it later. Usually, I ... if I'm not here before 9:30 or 10, no one even knows, because no one's contacted me at that point, because of the west coast focus.

I usually ... my hours are 9:30 to 5:30 to six. It's very reasonable, but you do have to make the extra effort when it's needed. Once a week, I will stay late to talk to the Brisbane team. That's okay, because it's needed to really create that team atmosphere.

Suzanne: I would think the other thing that's needed is process, right?

Julia: Yeah.

Suzanne: When you're in a physical environment, maybe for better and for worse, there's a certain amount of, hey, let's just go grab that conference room and jam this out, when you have to be mindful of, oh, this team is about to power off for the day, or it's a holiday in Australia tomorrow, and you have to be a little bit more teed up around key meetings and things like that.

Julia: Yeah. I think being organized in any role you're in, technology, a lot of our technology teams are super organized. As long as you are able to have a very transparent, organized view into what you're working on, it allows other teams to be able to pick up very easily where you left off, or just to know what someone else was doing.

I think being organized really helps. Also, it's ... for better and worse, but Expedia has this philosophy where really any team should be able to use the tool that they want, that works for them in their working structure. There's not a mandatory ... you have to use JIRA, in fact, a lot of teams don't use.

Suzanne: I don't blame them.

Julia: There's no perfect tool. Of someone could create it.

Suzanne: What do you use for your ticket tracking?

Julia: Right now it's all over the place, because we're in the midst of combining a lot of teams. But, it's between ... Most teams between JIRA, Mingle, and Trello.

Suzanne: Very different applications going on here.

Julia: Very different. Even recently, I tried a new tool that I read about called Mural, which is like a virtual whiteboarding tool. I tried it for a two hour meeting that we held, where it's this collaborative editing tool that's meant for ... you can paste stickies, and create different templates. That was really neat to try.

Suzanne: Right. It emulates the manual process, but gives you a digital interface.

Julia: Yes.

Suzanne: I always say about tools, they're great for accelerating that which works. But, if you don't actually have a process underneath it, all you end up doing is spending a lot of time figuring out, how do I customize this? Of course, the answer is: figure out what works with your team, and then put a tool over top to make things go faster.

Julia: That's a great tip for any team.

Suzanne: What do you do ... Are you on video chats all day?

Julia: All the time. I'm ... can I curse on here?

Suzanne: Yeah, curse away. We love cursing on the show.

Julia: I'm kind of a dick about it, because we ... there is a consistent tool that most people at this point use, which is Blue Jeans, for video chats. People have love/hate relationship with it, like any tool. But, when I see someone join a call and their video's not on, I will call them out, because that ... in this type of global world, where I'm probably ... there's a good chance I may never meet you in person. You better have that camera on to really create ... maximize the connection that we could have.

Suzanne: Does this work ... First of all, you said everyone's using Blue Jeans, and because I'm a Neil Diamond fan, I’m thinking forever in blue jeans, versus forever against blue jeans. But, we digress.

Is it your camera is on, and at any point somebody can activate a chat?

Julia: No.

Suzanne: You still have to buy in to the ...

Julia: Yes.

Suzanne: ... not being watched. It's not big brother.

Julia: I'm not being watched, at least by no one in Expedia. Who knows? In my home laptop, I know a lot of people tape over their video cameras nowadays.

Suzanne: All the real techie folks do that.

Julia: Yeah.

Suzanne: They know something we don't, maybe. I'm not sure.

We talk about tools, about process. Certainly, when you're working with remote teams, it's important. What are some of the other qualities that you think make for a great product manager? Or that you think ... that you've had to learn in order to succeed in this kind of environment?

Julia: I think ... My favorite part of being a product manager is, honestly, that it doesn't force you to choose what career you want to do. That's always something I struggled with, is, I didn't know if I wanted to be a journalist, or a psychologist, or go into marketing, which is this ambiguous field, and it really allows you to do anything that you want. You almost ... I listened to one of your past interviews.

Suzanne: Oh, great.

Julia: I forgot his name, but he talked about, it's the career for a generalist. I think that is so true and it was such a good point. I think that's really the best thing about being a product manager.

To answer your question, what I think makes a good product manager, is having an active curiously, and really, each one of those skillsets is thinking about: How can I analyze data a little bit better? How can I understand people a little bit better? How can I learn more about technology? How can I be a better writer, a better speaker?

I think it's ... If you're actively curious in a lot of things, it's almost the career for you, because it doesn't make you choose.

Suzanne: Right. I think ... I hear that a lot, and certainly being, having been in this field for a long time myself, I think it's the thing that drives me is, there's always opportunity to create. There's always opportunity to reinvent the situation and the rules that govern the situation too.

Julia: Yeah.

Suzanne: A tremendous amount of freedom. What do you think is your special sauce blend of PM skillsets? If I were going to hire you, and you were going to come and make a business case for me about what you think you contribute the most as a product manager?

Julia: That's a great question. I actually ... philosophically, I find those questions hard to answer, because I think the best people that can answer those questions are others about you, that can truly answer the type of person you are.

I think my biggest skillset, or what was the ... term that you used?

Suzanne: There's just the ... the blend of skills, really. Because there ... As generalists, we're business oriented, which is sales and marketing mindset. We're technically oriented, we work certainly with digital products, and we have to understand user experience, right?

Julia: Yeah.

Suzanne: As the lifeline to the customer. So, within that constellation, what's your unique makeup, would you say?

Julia: I think one of the biggest things, if I could look back and think that I brought to each team, is an ability, but also a passion to just hit the ground running. I think that's needed, even if you work at a ... an ultra big company or a tiny company, you need to move fast.

You need to be able to make decisions quickly, but with an educated perspective. I think that desire to hit the ground running, and not want a lot of oversight, I hope makes me an asset.

I also think the desire to work with people. Because if you are not good at relationship management, or if you don't come to work with a positive attitude, I actually think that's a deal breaker for any product manager.

If you are more negative than you are positive, I think that would be a no for me if I were ever interviewing somebody. Because, whether you like it or not, in some cases, you become like a cheerleader for your teams. You might not think you're actively in that role, but you are.

You're there to make sure everyone's excited about what you're working on, that partner teams know what you're doing, that if there's a roadblock in the road, which there are, or always is, that you can think quickly about how to get past it, about how to pivot.

I think maintaining that kind of positive attitude, and being able to communicate that to different types of personalities is key.

Suzanne: I think what we can also do is invite your team members to listen in to this episode, ...

Julia: Oh, man.

Suzanne: ... then they can comment?

Julia: Exactly, yeah.

Suzanne: In the show notes ... [crosstalk 00:28:27]

Julia: She doesn't do this at all.

Suzanne: ... and say ... yeah. Hey, Julia, you asked for a mirror. I'm going to be a mirror for you.

Julia: You suck.

Suzanne: I have a feeling that you are excellent at bringing a positive attitude. Listeners can't see it. She's just got ear to ear smile, lots of light emanating.

I want to talk ... You and I spoke before we did the interview. We talked a little bit about gender in the workplace. I've shared, certainly on the show and with our listeners, that it's an important angle for our show, that we don't want to just talk to a hundred people of the same gender, a hundred people of the same experience.

I'm always curious to hear, especially from women, what it's been like to be in technology? How does the gender conversation manifest for you, as an individual?

Julia: That's such a big subject, and it's something I'm very passionate about. Not even just gender balance, but equality. That's so much bigger than gender, of course. It's just something we can talk about today.

I think, starting out in my career, I never felt it at all. I actually felt more of the ... not active discrimination, but I always felt insecurities about my age, and people calling that out, or feeling uncomfortable with it, because I was usually the youngest person in the room.

But, as I get a little bit older, I don't think anyone that I've worked with is actively hoping for an imbalance, or will actively have bad intentions. But, I think it's just so built in to the system that we work in. It's almost hard if you're a millennial, like me, at this point, to have patience with it, because …

Suzanne: Wait. You're a millennial?

Julia: Yes. Isn't a millennial if you were born before or after 1980?

Suzanne: I don't really know how they ... I think it ... I think you're right. I think they say ... but ...

Julia: Is this over now? Should I leave?

Suzanne: Yeah, end of interview.

No. I guess I just ... I don't know why I didn't think that you were a millennial.

Julia: I thought ... Well, if the definition is 1980 or later, then I'm a millennial.

Suzanne: All right. Fine, sorry to interrupt.

Julia: Keep going.

I think it's hard to have patience, because change takes time. Even in the short time I've been at Expedia, I do see change taking place. I love working here for a lot of different reasons, but one of it being that there is so much open conversation about change, and not just gender balance, but any type of positive change, and contributing to a good society.

But, change takes forever. It's really, really hard to be patient. I don't know. I think one thing that I've seen to be valuable, especially being away from headquarters, where ... regardless of what gender you conform to, if you're not in the center of constant activity, you have to be a little bit louder, or be a little bit braver, I think, to have that visibility to have your voice heard.

I think as a woman, sometimes it's hard, or it's not necessarily what we've always been preached, which is to raise your hand first, or to speak first. That's something, whether it becomes annoying or not, but I actually really try to do, because I think it helps. If you're really passionate about the subject, or whatever business conversation is going on, to be at the table, let your voice heard, no matter what level you are within the company.

Suzanne: You take up space is what you're saying?

Julia: Yeah. But, make sure it's space that's valuable, that you're not ... you're actually contributing something positive, or you're listening and making a difference afterward. But, I think contributing with a purpose.

Suzanne: Are there ... task forces in Expedia? Cultural task forces that try to encourage and promote these conversations? Are you part of any of those task forces?

Julia: Yeah. There's a ton. Similar to there not being any specific guidance on what technology tool to use, it's very similar on the cultural side. Because every office is different, and I've had the fortune of going to a lot of our other offices. They all have their own culture.

There's no recipe for how to do it. There are little ... a lot of groups that start up here and there. There are company funded organizations. Just in Chicago, recently we started something I think called the employee action, or advisory counsel, which I'm a part of. That's really just thinking about, how can Chicago be ... continue to be a really great place to work within Expedia, and how can we continue to grow and invest in the office from a fun perspective, from a professional development perspective. That's been really enjoyable to be a part of.

Suzanne: I guess that would also be a perk of being part of ... not just being a global product manager, but part of such a global organization, is you could theoretically say, "You know what? I'm gonna move to Japan."

Then they would make room for you?

Julia: It's ...

Suzanne: Is it accommodating in that regard?

Julia: It's amazing. From what I've seen, I've not voiced that desire to move yet, but, from what I've seen, there's ... it's really a people focused company, and that if you want to make a change or try something out, it seems like most all the time, the company finds a way to make it happen.

That's really exciting. I don't want to move at this point, but if I eventually do, it's really fortunate to be working at a company that could potentially accommodate it.

I was listening to some of your other podcast, er, episodes, and everyone deals with the same types of issues as a product manager. How should I ... Should I even create a road map? If so, how long should it be for? What tools should I use? How should I work with partners?

All these questions are the same. But, they're almost ... it's almost like each one of those companies is a little microcosm within Expedia, because it is such a complex organization that makes it ... the challenges are a little bit more exciting. They're always with more scale and more impact.

Scratchpad, every change will impact millions of travelers right away.

Suzanne: This is another prevalent theme in our show, and really one of the catalyzing reasons for doing it, which is, there's so many ways the product management experience can manifest.

Some people do really well in the startup environment. They want that kind of scrappy, I see an opportunity I'm gonna take it, I'm gonna be the pioneer of this organization.

Some people want to enter into when the company has found product market fit, when there is a certain amount of stability. Some people want to be part of bringing something to scale.

Knowing what ... your ... what excites you as it relates to product, I think, makes sense, because when ... I hear you, that in some ways it sounds a little bit like, "Expedia, the good empire," has all of these micro units, and micro identities inside, and that translates in a good way.

But, that knowing that space where you're going to thrive is an important part of your fit. Large enterprise organizations don't always afford that. Sometimes it's ... I'm employee number 14,373.

Julia: A cog in the wheel.

Suzanne: Yeah. That's different.

Julia: That's not to say, I do see myself eventually trying something smaller, or even trying something myself maybe. But, for right now, and for the foreseeable future, I'm actually really, really happy with my current position and seeing the types of opportunities and challenges that I could learn from where I am.

Suzanne: If there was any other product in Expedia, Inc. that you could go and work at, do you have one that you secretly ... I know you love Scratchpad, but is there one that you think, "Oh, I love that product. I'd love to get my hands on it?"

Julia: That is such a good question. I'm actually going to answer it with what I'm currently doing. Because I started on Scratchpad, but even in the last few months I've actually taken on a new stream of work, that investment tools space, where hopefully I'll be able to create some new products later on.

I actually don't want to be doing anything different, because I really love working on horizontal products. Really, any company that I've worked on, I've ... looking back, I've always worked on this space that's horizontal, that touches …

Suzanne: Define that for our audience, when you say horizontal products. What do you mean?

Julia: Someone might define it differently. But, I think about it as a space that stretches against many different business verticals, or many different lines of business.

Within Expedia, as an example, we might think of ... we have the lodging line of business, the flights line of business, cars, and each of those teams, of course, has their own product team, and they have their own complexities and challenges to think about. I love working on something like Scratchpad, or even Loyalty in the past, because it touches all of those.

It's more challenging sometimes, to understand where you fit, or where you can try to make an impact first. But, I enjoy that; I enjoy the ambiguity of it.

Suzanne: What it also brings to attention, I think ... of course, with product management we talk a lot about stakeholders, right?

Julia: Mm-hmm.

Suzanne: You're always in this process of aligning stakeholders. But, in a scenario like the one that you describe, and this goes back to what I was asking about earlier. One level of complexity is: Here's this tool called Scratchpad that needs to have its own identity in different brands.

Then, here's this tool called Scratchpad that needs to be valuable for, not just users of Expedia dot com, but some users of Expedia dot com, presumably are segmented as hotel users. They don't typically leverage the tool for flights, but they do it for hotels.

How does the Scratchpad tool then become valuable in that use case nest. It's like a Russian doll. It's like a use case, inside a use case, inside a use case.

Julia: Yeah. I think we're trying …

Suzanne: That's what a horizontal product is, when you get them all out, laid on the shelf.

Julia: Yeah, that's true. There's always one partner in one line of business that's a big nesting doll that you have to ... you have to think about first or prioritize. That's so true.

Yeah. I think we ... It's something we've started to pivot on our thinking a little bit, and being this horizontal product, or horizontal platform, how could we not think so much about the line of business or the product that the traveler's trying to book, but really answering the question that's most important for them at the time.

Regardless of what product you're booking, or what trip you're going on, there's always a question that you're asking. It could be: When is the best time to go? It could be: What are the best hotels to stay at in this neighborhood? What is the right neighborhood?

There's these questions that everyone, or most people ask at different stages of their journey, for booking their travel, or even after their travel. We're starting to think about how can we use Scratchpad as a tool to really deliver the answers in the right context.

Suzanne: Does Scratchpad give you a ... you brought up what's the best hotels to stay in the city? Can this be my forever diary of I'm thinking of taking all these trips? I've got a short list of great hotels in Chicago, a short list ... is that the idea? It's as big as I want it to be?

Julia: Yeah. Let's talk again in six months. You can tell me what you think.

Suzanne: Okay. We do a segment called get the job, learn the job, love the job. What advice can you offer to the next, fresh out of school, doesn't know they want to get into product, or knows they want to get into product, but doesn't know how to get in, because it's hard breaking in?

Julia: First thing I think is, be a little bit educated. Because it's amazing how much you will stand out by just educating yourself a little bit. If you find that you think you want to go into product, or let's take, even, the case of someone who doesn't ... When I was originally ... when I started my career, looking for jobs, the way I would do it is I would look up Wikipedia City, and the list of companies within that city, and figure out what are the companies here that I would be interested to work for?

Even if you take that approach, and you are proactive enough about reaching out to someone to talk to, I think just being a little bit educated about what they do, and the company or business they operate in, will make you stand out so much more than another kid who might send an email that is really just doing it because their college professor said to network.

I think just having a little bit of education and insight into your questions will make you stand out a lot.

Suzanne: And purpose, I'm hearing as well. There's an undertone of: I'm writing to you because I think this company might be a good fit for me, versus I'm just looking for jobs...

Julia: Yes. Hire me please, anyone.

Suzanne: Yeah, okay. What about hard lessons learned? Do you have a particular failure or learning moment that you remember from some stage in your career that you thought, oh, I will warn people?

Julia: Yes.

Suzanne: Don't do what I did.

Julia: Two.

Suzanne: Two?

Julia: Yeah, that stick out. One was, early on in my career it was the same boss that gave me that really good advice early on. He gave me another piece of really good advice. His name's Dustin Harris if he's listening.

Suzanne: Dustin's so wise.

Julia: He's so wise. At one point I was ... again, I was really green, and something happened, something wasn't working well. Maybe a deadline fell off, or a sprint fell off, and I started freaking out a little bit. He pulled me aside and gave me this lesson of: Unless it's really important, or something is really falling off the hinges, don't freak out. You have to ... for the right audience, especially if you're dealing with executives, you have to maintain a level of cool that you'll get it handled.

I think that was a really good perspective, and something that, as time went on, just personally I've tried to deal with a lot is, it ... it depends a lot on your philosophy with life and how you think about big topics like religion, all that.

For me, personally, I don't think a lot of this matters, for me. It's all about am I a good person? Am I enjoying the people that I'm working with? Am I contributing to something positive? The rest will sort itself out as we put our minds toward it.

Suzanne: Okay. What was the other one?

Julia: The other one was actually at Orbitz. The lesson learned, there was a marketing team, so at Loyalty's space, a lot of product teams deal with marketing stakeholders a lot. In the Loyalty product space especially, we were dealing with the Loyalty marketing team all the time. They were our biggest stakeholder.

I think saying no became a huge lesson for me there. Something I probably learned too late, but just being able to ask why of people, and pressure them to give you an answer, and saying no if it's ... being confident and able to say no if it's not the answer that you want to hear.

That was something I learned in that experience for sure.

Suzanne: I think it's great advice for product people, and also great advice for life. But, you make an important point, which is you have to understand your why, their why, the purpose behind it. Just saying yes and just saying no if it's equally arbitrary doesn't usually contribute value.

Julia: Yes. One person I work with right now, my VP actually likes to say that if someone's not mad at you, then you're not doing a good enough job, because it's part of our job to say no to people, to be able to have a perspective and a point of view on what's important. If you're saying yes to everyone, then it makes sense. You're not really doing your job.

Suzanne: So many good nuggets of wisdom here in the walls of Expedia.

Julia: I know, I'm lucky I work with all these people.

Suzanne: All right. What's your favorite thing about being a product manager?

Julia: It comes back to ... It sounds so cheesy, I'm such a cheese ball. But, it comes back to, honestly I think, working with different people and not being forced into this box of how you define yourself, and being able to work with so many disciplines, so many different backgrounds.

I know ... I might be skipping ahead, but I know you ask a lot of your podcast guests on what are resources they might read.

Suzanne: I like how knowledgeable you are about this show. You're like the number one fan here.

Julia: Oh, yeah.

Suzanne: This is so great.

Julia: But, I actually would recommend ...

Suzanne: It's going to be my next question, by the way.

Julia: Okay.

Suzanne: Just go right into it.

Julia: I'll just go into it.

I would recommend, if you're a product manager, if you want to get into product, for God sakes, do not read product books. I actually think that's terrible advice, because there's so many ... well, not terrible advice, I take that back. But, I respect ... I really do respect people that can work all day, and then go home and read a book about product management, or about the lean startup.

I could never do that. I've done it ... I tried it once, and it was horrible, because I'm at work all day, and the last thing I want to think about when I go home is work again. I have other hobbies and interests that I take part in.

I could ... I can entertain a YouTube video and educate myself in other ways, but I think if you ... as a product manager, you should be thinking about people all the time. Not just the people that you work with, but the people that you're delivering your end product to.

If you don't yet even have an interest in understanding people, but you're more interested in understanding the lean startup, you're going way too far in the other direction before you've gotten the basics down first.

I would encourage someone first to travel, learn about different cultures, go into places that are not in your comfort level, learn about people before you learn about how to create the right road map.

Suzanne: Beautiful. All right. We're going to burn the recommended resources list, and we won't ask anymore guests.

Julia: Oh no.

Suzanne: I'm just ... We're still going to ask the question, because some people do like to learn by reading, but I think what's underneath all of that is of course empathy, right?

Julia: Yeah.

Suzanne: This is another big theme of product management and your ability to understand somebody else's point of view in a critical moment like you described earlier, of what is this ... the problem that they're trying to solve right now, or what is the question?

They're asking themselves. Having enough awareness of what somebody else might think or wonder, especially if they are a different gender, different age, different race, what that could look like is important.

Julia: Exactly.

Suzanne: I think it's great advice. Last question before we wrap here, Julia. Is there a personal or professional mantra that you use to guide yourself? Do you want to share it with us?

Julia: Sure. It's not a huge guide, but it will come into play sometimes. I totally stole it from my husband, so I give full credit to him. But, I think it was actually from his baseball coach a long time ago, that said, "Next play."

I love that. Because, especially for someone like me who tends to fall on anxiety and concern, I think being able to realize and learn from what happened, even if it wasn't great, and move on and go to the next play is really, really good advice. Because, in the end, what might seem huge and like the end of the world right now, won't be tomorrow. It's great if you can learn from that and do a better job the next day.

Suzanne: I can't think of a better way to end. Thank you so much for being a part of our project.

Julia: Thank you.

Suzanne: So great to meet you. Julia Kanter, Expedia.

Julia: Thank you.