Minimum Viable Product Manager

Kellin: I came from a data analysis type background at UCLA. I was doing matlab and research design for them and I got thrown into technology. Excuse me. I was trying to build an application. I raised a seed round in 2013 for a small app that was supposed to be a great algorithm driven type application in the health space. When I got there I was the person who said I'm going to do it all. I tried to learn how to not only run the business side or try to dive in and learn as much as I could about technology and monetizing applications and the business side, but I also tried to throw myself into coding and tell myself if I'm going to build this application I need to know how to code. It was probably the biggest mistake I ever made because I wasted a lot of time trying to understand such a deep world of technology that I really feel that product managers don't need to know.

At that point I was, again, running a company but when you're running an early stage company you basically are a product manger. You have a small product, you hopefully have a small team in these areas of things, and you're the one who's managing all of it and making sure that this product is going in the right direction for success and seeing it through its life cycle. I would say that the biggest mistake or one of these areas that I think that you should not be touching on as a product manager is really trying to be the developer as well. We have this understanding, and I really think it's important to understand the maturity of programming languages; how they work, where they come into play, where they can be efficient, and where they're not. Which types of systems within a tech stack might be better for certain types of products and which ones may not be.

As a product manager I don't really feel that it's necessary to be the one actually able to fix the bugs or bring the MVP to life on the backend, but to have a general understanding of if you tell me 8 hours for a token on an Instagram AVI I can call your bullshit. Basically, understand the time it takes to put into these products and how they're built rather than actually trying to build them yourself. I think there's this balance because of the way that software works and how fast technology matures, and how it works. If you try and spend time learning a language you will be light years behind in regards to what you could be as a product manager overall in all three of those spaces. Being efficient with your time I think is the most important thing.

Suzanne: How do you think that manifest for ... I agree with you. If you're the founder, often times you are product manager and then sometimes, as we know, founders have a tough time letting go of that role as the company grows. What if you are an engineer that's also a founder? Is it difficult for them to stop coding and hand that over to somebody else, because product is vision. This is the thing, it's strategy; it's not about being in the trenches it's about being up above and seeing what's next.

Kellin: Totally.

Suzanne: Do you think it's hard?

Kellin: I can also relate. Again, I try and dive into a lot of projects and there's been a few projects where my partner or co-founders have been purely developers. Coming from more of a business type background, trying to actually combine the two I think it's understanding people's strengths and also their weaknesses. As well as understanding your own strengths and weaknesses to blend the two to have enough respect within your team to be like, hey. Phrase it in a way like: you are the guy in the trenches but eventually there's going to be too much work to do. How do we be the most efficient and most successful team by splitting up these roles to weigh in on our strengths and also give somebody else our weaknesses that may be their strengths? Working with developers, I don't want to say it's always a challenge but-

Suzanne: I always say that.

Kellin: I think it's a work in progress. Everyone has different skill sets that make a difference and sometimes we like to try and do it all, because we get so emotionally invested in the products that we create. I think over time, especially when you have developers that are in co-founder type roles, you start seeing mistakes that you could have prevented by just having too much pride or wanting to be the person that does it all.

At least when I start projects I try and create more MVP type products for my own interest or any project I'm a part of if there's a developer onboard. In the beginning I think we try and create a roadmap and also understand, almost like a gut check, if this product becomes the next billion dollar idea I'm not going to be the one running that billion dollar product. I don't think that I have enough experience to run a billion dollar company but I want to make sure that in the plan we understand that and we're comprehensively on the same page.

I don't think it's a developer thing or a business thing I think it's honestly just a personality thing. Some developers will be super attached to it and that's either going to create mistakes or create success. Finding the right gel between teams and understanding where strengths and weaknesses are really, to me as a product manager, understanding that and creating that respect level between everybody is where you start getting this almost chemistry that creates these billion dollar products. I don't think any developer is attached to product management they just get emotionally attached to what they've built. I get it.

Suzanne: We joke about the challenge of communicating with developers, and truthfully they get a bad rep. It's equally challenging to talk to designers and to talk to marketing people but I always think of it as the proverbial arms are crossed and they're waiting for you to say the code word [crosstalk 00:10:20]

Kellin: Kind of prima donna.

Suzanne: Now you can come in. Oh, now you're part of our club.

Kellin: The toll trolls, right?

Suzanne: Do you think that being a woman makes that more challenging or different in any way because number one, developers are still predominantly male? How has that impacted you in your career?

Kellin: I will say, and I think this is something that is unique, I have never actually worked with a developer. Every project that I've been a part of I've only had the privilege and opportunity to work with male developers.

Suzanne: Female developers if you're out there please-

Kellin: Yeah, come find me.

Suzanne: Please heed Kellin's call.

Kellin: Come find me. Being a woman in general in this industry can be difficult. I recently have experienced that a lot. I had a conversation with one of the founders of a project I was a part of who is an amazing guy, really tries to do a lot of good in the world. I came to him with a concern; he was also a developer just so you know. A concern on the way that he spoke to me. Not in the sense of I was trying to take things personal but it was the way he would approach things every time he would speak to me as his product manager he would say "Don't take things personal. I don't want you to internalize this." It was like in saying that you're automatically thinking that I'm going to take it personal.

It was like, "Hey can we chat for a second? I'd really, really like it if we could be on the same playing field. For us to work together as a team and really understand again where my strengths are in this project and where yours are we need to be able to have a blanket level of respect that I'm not under you, you're not under me. We are working together." It was the first time I've ever had someone actually get very upset with me over it, and it was a learning experience for me.

Suzanne: About you bringing it to his attention in general, that's what he was upset about?

Kellin: Again this is, I think, a personal opinion. I truly think it had to do with me being a female. He thought that I was taking things personal or thought that I would take things personal and internalize things because I was a female rather than if he was taking to one of his bros sitting next to him on a desk and wouldn't have a problem. I've never had any serious issues with it. I definitely see a problem where no matter what I do, and I'm gay so I'm very heavily involved in the LGBT community.

Suzanne: That's snake eyes basically.

Kellin: Yeah. I think it's helped me a little bit because I think some of the guys think that they can talk to me like a bro even though I don't really play that game. There's a level of it can help you in the sense of if you're really public about who you are, but maybe just in the sense of no matter what just because of the culture it does become an issue in some sense. Across the board, altogether, I think it's just how you portray yourself as a person. I'm never going to be a product manager that comes into a room and tries to act like I know everything. I think another learning experience for me is to just be humble when you go into a new team or you get the privilege to be a part of a team or a new product, a feature, or whatever you're doing. Just honestly try and understand and hear the people out..

I think when you come from a very respectful as well as enthusiastic background or a willpower I guess to really not necessarily talk about it but really try and do it. People just respect that in general and the one thing I do love about this industry and the reason why I switched from a super corporate UCLA-type ladder of trying to be ... What I was trying to do was be a doctor, to technology, and especially startups is that I can be exactly who I want to be everyday and someone finds good in that.

Someone understands that people have skills that they can offer and make great things happen. Whether that be a finteh application or an e-commerce web platform if you're willing to learn it and really willing to just humbly be like, I don't know this but show me how and show me how so we can all be better, we become a better team. Woman, man, I don't think it necessarily matters. You're going to get personalities all over the place but if you could come to the table as a product manager and really bring that attitude I think it's a much more effective role as well as you're a better team player.

Suzanne: One of the tings I often try to do in this program in particular is demystify this concept of ... Part of it is what is product management. Do you tell your friends, you tell your partner I'm a product manager? Do they even know what that means?

Kellin: My girlfriend, she's a writer and a digital market, assistant editor for digital magazine, so she knows what it is because she deals with product managers all the time and head of product at her company is actually one of my best friends. My girlfriend knows but I think when I tell my friends unless they're in tech, which most of my friends are; I try and my people be the industry that I'm in because the more minds and different skills you can bring together the more collaborative you are.

In regards to just someone asking me what do you do I usually phrase it as ... If I say product manager and they're like, so you design clothes or you design hardware. I'm like, no I'm a technical product manager that designs software or I'm a part of software teams that make products a reality. They're kind of like, okay so you build apps? I'm like, kind of. The way I phrase it is that I think product managers are the CEOs of their products. You have project management which is also something different, but also goes hand in hand with product management.

You better know how to do it and do it well, and just put in the time to get good at it but understand that product managers not only see through projects within the products but also see this product lifecycle. You see this product through its entire life, or you're hoping to. At least that's my goal in my mind and that's what I tell people; I tell them I'm the CEO of product and I don't necessarily do project management. I am a little bit more of the higher level of strategy; I want to be able to take business stakeholders and what they need and also be able to take the technical side and make it a reality. Usually that works, they get an idea. Then usually right after that they go, oh I have a great idea for an app.

Suzanne: I've heard that. I've heard more than once in my life for sure.

Kellin: I will say the best way to get them ... Not quiet because some people have great ideas and some people don't. I know I come up with silly ideas all the time but the best way to check them and what they think is going to be the next Facebook is how do you make money. If they have no way of giving me a reasonable monthly income or revenue I'm just like, "Look you cannot define product on users, especially now as we go into a kind of recession you have to be able to create cash-flow positive type businesses. When you can give me an idea and show me how you're going to make cash every single month from even a small amount of users. If you can make money from day one then I'll hear you out." That's how I gut check myself too. I go man this is a great idea I'm going to start putting some requirements together, put some mock-ups and I'll test it. Then I gut check myself and I say, how am I actually going to try and make money at scale?

Suzanne: The instinct is definitely to go towards solution.

Kellin: Totally.

Suzanne: You see this as common in designers and developers, people who inherently can see solutions. They immediately want to go there and when we do that we skip over all the work like customer development, and does anybody even want this thing, and just how many competitors are already trying to do this. The other thing is ideas are a multiplier of execution. At The Development Factory we get this all the time. People say "I've got this great idea for an app, will you guys build it for free?" We're certainly not averse to coming in as equity partners but I'm the same; the first thing that I want to know is where is your business model? What work have you done to demonstrate that you have a plan for customer acquisition and tracking against those? It's this myth of we'll build it first and then we'll solve for our-

Kellin: Build it, they will come.

Suzanne: Which by the way I have done.

Kellin: Many a times.

Suzanne: These have been my own failures. I have jumped to solutions and built great products and then thought, shit ...

Kellin: What the hell did I just do?

Suzanne: How are we going to find people? It's hard to reverse engineer a marketing strategy onto an existing product.

Kellin: I think when I get into meetings with more of the business side of stakeholders the biggest thing that I try and relay is this is almost an emotional tie. They're like, "No it's going to work." I'm like, this is not just about reverse engineering and having mistakes made that we could have avoided, it's costly. We're wasting money. Every time a developer sits down and is on a computer his hour, his time is money. To really understand the data and analytics that can go into even just the market research of the types of product that people are building I think is probably also one of the best skills and one of the most useful skills as a product manager you can have. I will go and figure out every KPI that I can figure out for a market or for a feature before I even goo to the drawing board and try an create mock-ups or start these meetings or stand-ups to figure out what the next step is.

I learned this through failure. I built two products. One of them I got a little bit better but we still, I think, spent way too much time in just designing and developing a product even as we were doing the market research and trying to figure out where our actual market was. We still wasted a bunch. I think there's a lot of products or tools out there that I think product managers can use that are completely free, or very cost effective, to even just see if people are interested in an idea and how you can use those metrics to figure out where your first building block is to create a product or a feature within an already existing product. Keep that in mind, KPIs. Those are the ones. Find the web analytics and mobile analytics tools to make your life easier and hold them like a bible. That's my game.

Suzanne: Who is this job for? How do you know if product management is right for you? What kind of person does it take? It's so different but what do you think?

Kellin: It's funny because I never saw myself as a product manager.

Suzanne: You were going to be a doctor.

Kellin: I was going to be a doctor. I graduated at UCSD, I'm from San Diego; it's the best city in the world. I might be a little biased. I graduated, I had done a complete honors thesis on brain tumors in rats. It was super weird. I was like a brain surgeon on the weekend for mice. Completely legal; they're treated like kings. I was set on being a doctor. It's funny because my mom's in dentistry and she was always like, "Be a dentist. Be a dentist. Be dentist. It's a great field to be in, it's not as long of a track. Not as many loans but you can still make a really decent income."

I'm all for dentistry. It's a great field to be in as well as doctors. Medicine has still got a lot of great things going for it and we'll see how it goes in the future but every single day that I sat down and studied and did the things I did for that track. Even when I was at UCLA doing my PhD thesis, or preparing for my PhD thesis there, I never ever saw myself as the person who wanted to cure caner. My interest in it was never the science. I like the science and I liked the nitty gritty of it but I always wanted to build an empire. That was what I told myself.

My goal was to build an empire. I didn't ever see myself being a part of a research type medical institution or anything. I saw myself building a private practice and then completely taking it to scale, expanding it as far as I could. Then eventually my goal was to take 6 months out of the year, surf the world, and do pro bono work and have other people running my practice at home. Over time, as I got more and more involved in this ladder of seniority I started to realize how much my personality didn't match. Just in general the type of people. Overall when you get into a very science driven type field they loved science and I started to ask more questions about the funding for projects and how these things were allocated, and why, and how we could be better with it rather than the actual science of the vaccines and stuff that we were using.

Suzanne: You wanted to build and fix things.

Kellin: Exactly.

Suzanne: They're like, just shh I'm looking into this-

Kellin: I just am curious, I want to know hwy. I take myself as someone who will never be able to 100% work for somebody else. I got driven to technology in particular because I feel as if it's a very open industry where you can come from any background or come from any thing and someone will hear you out. If you have an idea and you prove it, it doesn't matter if you're 12 years old or you're 85. As well as no relevance to where your experience comes from. If you prove something and you validate it, and you can continue to validate it and prove that you're willing to put in the time to make it better and expand it, someone will hear you out.

Just from my own personal broken background that was something that was really meaningful for me. Project management for me is the opportunity to own products or projects and really have a say in what goes on, but also understand and learn from the people around you. My ultimate goal would be to run my own company. I don't necessarily see myself a product manager for the rest of my life but in saying that I will always be a product manager in whatever role I do. If I had a perfect role or a perfect scenario I would run a multi million to billion dollar tech company that hopefully we took from the ground up and built with good efficient analytics, problem solving, and a good road map to success. I would never be able to do that if I didn't start small.

A big lesson I learned with my first company, that again miserable failed, was that I had no idea what it really took to build a tech company and I think product management is the type of personality where you have people who want to be in those executive roles and they want to put in the time, and they want to learn, and they want to get their hands dirty and do whatever it takes. There's a level of if you never actually get to that executive role you still have the ability to really own what you built and also see it through. If you're the kind of person who sets goals and is a die-hard bulldog that wants to get it done and see things happen before your eyes from start to finish product management is for you. I also think that product management is good because there's a lot of different paths within business that get very structured. You start to hit walls, or ceilings I should say. Excuse me, ceilings.

Suzanne: Glass ceilings?

Kellin: Yeah. I have a friend who's one of the smartest guys I know. He works for a startup called Unified, who's a social media analytics type company. He's quadrupled his accounts, he runs all of the social media campaigns for these large brands and corporations, and he's the guy I go to when I need help with trying to create efficient social media testing. He told me the same thing. He was like, once I hit senior account manager I either have to go get an MBA or go more into management, but I don't have the ability to really create products or create solutions for problems I see in what we're doing right now.

That's what I like about product management, again it's to be able to create products and see things through; and say here's what the user is saying or the consumer is saying let's dive into this and try and find a way to solve it. Being able to have the respect of the mentors above you or executive stakeholders that usually have a lot of experience that have the mindset of the overall long term vision but you be able to see that long term vision and also be on the ground level with everyone in the trenches, and see what it takes to make that vision happen.

Suzanne: I'm an entrepreneur for over 20 years now. I always joke I have this really robust skill set and I'm pretty sure I'm not hirable because anyone would see me and they're like, no all you're going to do is create problems for my organization because instinctively you want to come in and start fixing things.

Kellin: Totally.

Suzanne: I always have to remember this is not your role here, you're just here to provide a specific function. I think that is the thrill of product management; it's endless creative, there is no one output, and it's interesting to think about it in terms of ... I guess I'm imagining the reluctant product manager getting pushed. We talk about the pressure cooker as this place that sounds really scary; pressure, it's hot, but we don't want to go. I don't want to be the CEO, then I'm just going to be holding AGMs and shaking hands. I want to be in the trenches of the figuring it out.

Kellin: I think that's something to say too, I've tried to grab as many mentors as I possibly can, specially in the last year to year and a half. I understand as a product manager how much more I have to learn as well as what I have learned. Being a CEO, especially in early stage startup companies you'll notice really quickly that their full time job is basically fundraising if that's their path. If it's not their path they're usually ... I had a guy that I met the other day who's just the most tenacious salesman I've ever met who's the CEO of his company and he doesn't need to raise a round because he's already cash-flow positive and doing very well. Hopefully they'll be able to bootstrap and scale but it just goes to show that his role, the reason why he built that company and he did well, was the he just is an insane salesman.

He's not a product guy. He has a product guy or he has a small team that does that but the CEO himself should not be the one making sure that every single metric is matched or every goal is met on the day to day. I would say we do more like sprints, the two weeks that we go through and we go through this feedback loop. I don't see CEOs doing that but I do thin kit's important for them to understand it. When I see a CEO that doesn't necessarily put in the time to understand it I see a limitation. Not necessarily a limitation that's going to determine success or failure but maybe create problems between his team and his executive stakeholders.

When it comes to companies that get bigger and bigger their vision or their drive is most of the time to keep their investors happy; it's creating growth exponentially, creating that hockey stick graph. You can see it even if you look at it from a large scale of these larger corporations like an Apple or a Microsoft. it's insane how to the T they put their stock prices or how they grow. Their revenue price is almost like they plan it. The product managers don't have to deal with that. Again they have the ability to still be a part of it and also contribute to it, and have a say in it, but really focus on the product itself and what it takes to get those numbers. I would say if you're going to be a product manager I see it as a stepping stone really in some sense. You either are going to drive yourself through and still end up in a role that's very much like leadership but you're going to have your product managers underneath.

I hope that if you go that route, like when I talk to an SVP of product or something, the understanding role of what it takes to get everything done on the day to day but also again that understanding of the really high metrics level business visionary goals. You're either going to be a part of that executive team as it is or run your own. I think that's the best part about it, there's so much to offer. I'm a product manager that prefers to take contracts because I have the ability to learn all kinds of things. I feel like I'm the CEO of every company that I'm a part of because they put so much time and effort into their product and they don't necessarily have the experience to build it. I feel like I have the ability to not only learn but also really feel like I make a difference.

Suzanne: Is there any product, past or present, that you think man I would have loved to have been or be part of that product team?

Kellin: Just anything, any company?

Suzanne: I'll give you the context for this. I'm a big Apple music supporter. I'm like Spotify you're done Apple music is coming. Everybody thinks I'm wrong and that's fine. I like the integration. That's really irrelevant. One of my past imaginary jobs that I always thought I would be good at, and I haven't fully abandoned, is being a music supervisor. Basically making playlist for a living.

Kellin: Oh, you and I. You've got an ear, huh?

Suzanne: I'm driving and I'm listening to one of the playlists that Apple has recently suggested that I listen to and I thought, man that's a new product management role that got created; person or people in charge of coming up with lists to keep improving. I thought can I get into that job and leave behind all of this. Do you have one like that where you're going, you know what would have been awesome?

Kellin: Off the top of my head the one company that always comes to mind that I think is really awesome, and I haven't actually been following them too much lately, but Lyft.

Suzanne: Interesting, because of those pink mustaches?

Kellin: I am the post anti-Uber person ever.

Suzanne: Oh really?

Kellin: I never had a bad experience with them, I never saw them as bad. They were definitely the first one that I heard of. I've used them so I'm not just someone who's like, ew I'm not going to use them; but I think the way that Lyft built themselves as a company was a little bit rebellious if you look at their whole history of things. Just looking at the user experience of Uber and how they've changed and expanded to me it's the cookie cutter we have hyper growth and we're going to literally be the big brother of everything.

It's one of those chicken and egg problems. You have this company that came up with a phenomenal idea which was by no means original. There is the same exact thing; I lived in the Dominican Republic when I was 20 and Uber is everywhere in the world. They're basically just the taxis but what you would do is instead of being on your phone ... What they did was just implement a technology for the exact same thing. You're on your phone and you say you need a ride. In the Dominican Republic you literally just go onto the side of the road and you know where these taxi cabs are or they have websites sometimes that'll show you and you just stop on the road and you put your hand out, and you see them and you say I need a ride. Everyone jumps on, it's basically Uber Pool.

What Uber has done is amazing but I think that they've gotten too big so they're trying to find ways to continue that growth and how they expand. I'm sure they have so much R&D that we don't know about but I think what's so special about Lyft is that I think they started to realize that Uber was getting very large very quickly and all they really were focused on was expanding their drivers and being able to in some sense become profitable, which they still aren't. What Lyft has done is they said, okay there's a market of people who would much more appreciate a friendly driver. When I go into a Lyft I feel like their entire mission as a company is to not only give me a ride but give me an experience. That to me is what creates lifetime conversion.

I'm a lifetime customer of Lyft. As long as they're going I will choose Lyft over Uber every single day because that is what they market, that is what their drivers do, they stand by, and every time I leave I don't just give them a tip I usually am smiling from ear to ear; that was not only an easy fluid experience on my phone, no problems, no questions asked, but that person made me feel good after I finished that experience. I don't necessarily get that when I get into an Uber. Not saying that I have never had it with Uber, because I have, but I'm saying that when I go to Lyft and I say I need a ride I have conversations with people every time that blow my mind. Like I want to get their contact information and be friends with them. I think it's because they build their company from the ground up with that exact mission. They said, okay we are not necessarily anything unique form this person or the next person, Sidecar or whatever else, but our mission is to give you the friendly neighborhood driver that's going to make your day. That is the product that I'm always like, I love them. They have a really great team and I really hope that they continue to do well.

Suzanne: It's a testament too to the importance of creating a unique market position.

Kellin: 100 percent.

Suzanne: I see this with my students, my product management students, all the time. "I had this great great idea but then i started doing market research and I found out that there's all these competitors so ..."

Kellin: There's always going to be-

Suzanne: There's always going to be competitors, don't let that be the thing that ... Throw in the towel. It's about understanding here is the gap then. Even listening to you describe that Lyft is smart and says we don't have the money, we don't have the scale but when companies scale, as we know, it creates gaps because they get messy; they overlook things. It's a great example.

Kellin: As well as I think it's interesting to see we have a Spotify example here where we have the music industry.

Suzanne: Are you a Spotify fan? You're like, I didn't want to say it before.

Kellin: No, I'm a huge Apple fan. I'm holding an iPad right now, I have an iPhone, I have a Mac. I'm all about Apple. As well as I'm a runner so I still use my iPod shuffle, the one that doesn't even have a screen, because it's small and convenient and I can run [crosstalk 00:38:25]

Suzanne: Clip it on and go.

Kellin: Yeah. The reason why I got attached to Spotify was because I used to be the person that, I hate to say it, hopefully I don't get arrested for this, would download a lot of music free.

Suzanne: Illegally. Free.

Kellin: Yeah.

Suzanne: You single-handedly ruined the music industry.

Kellin: 100 percent, yep it was all me. I think Spotify just got me as an early adopter because I had the ability to just pay a monthly fee and I had all of the music I was spending hours and hours trying to download. I didn't have to do that anymore so it was a huge time saver for me. I think I just got attached to them. As well as one of my mentors is an investor in them and he used to be one of the percussionists for Kanye West, and Pharrell, and whatnot. Great guy. I met him actually through my first company with UCLA. He was one of the brand ambassador type guys that was like "All the artists should be with Spotify". when all the artists were like, "No this is ridiculous."

I think it just goes to show that Spotify is to me not necessarily the best solution, I don't think Apple music is the best solution, I don't think Tidal is the best solution. I just think that just based on your customers you are seeing something that they want. I don't want to pay for music I want to be able to ... I shouldn't say that, I want to be able to pay for the music I listen to but I don't want to pay $2 a song. They were making so much money. I'm 100 percent art. Excuse me, support art and I want these guys to get paid, but what they've done is I think they've tried to create a middle ground and Spotify was just the first one to really hone in on a single solution for that that was legal; that was also in some ways approved by the record labels and how they connected.

What we were getting at is that Spotify has now created such a massive influx for the record labels that they're all now investing in Spotify and all these other things because they have to be able to create some kind of revenue share with them or they're going to fail, they're going to go under. One thing that always gets me with Lyft is that when Uber got their investor .. Was it GM I think that invested in them or put a big chunk in them? One of the big, i can't remember how it was, auto companies decided Uber's going to be the way of the future and eventually we probably won't have cars. I hope that someone one that team was like, hey check out the music industry right now. Just based on the data and metric involved we're going to be the record labels soon so let's invest quickly now and hopefully get some significant share in these companies that are going to change the auto industry as we know it.

I believe it was Toyota that just put money into Lyft. Lyft is probably doing R&D as well. That to me is a metric of success, when you have one of these larger brands that basically is your controller or person who's doing the puppet work with cars saying you're doing something right I'm putting money into you on that level. It goes to show the Uber's going to do what they're going to do and they're going to be great. They're going to hopefully continue to expand but Lyft still has that market niche where they can expand as well and still be just as profitable.

Suzanne: I think it's equally a warning to companies to embrace the idea of product themselves.

Kellin: Sure.

Suzanne: I'm for Toronto originally and before we had Uber we had Halo. I don't know if you ever-

Kellin: No, I've never heard of them.

Suzanne: I think they're still around. They started focusing more intently on the European market.

Kellin: Nice.

Suzanne: Maybe in the South American market. They got pushed out but I loved Halo. In Toronto there's a big taxi cab conglomerate called Beck Taxi and I thought this is a classic example where if somebody, just one person at Beck, had raised their hand and said, "We need to get onto people's mobile phones and create a better user experience to get people into our cabs" Halo itself might not have been able to cannibalize so much of Beck's market share. This is true. Uber came along because where was New York City Taxi company? They could have been Uber.

Kellin: Sure.

Suzanne: Just by turning on their own product.

Kellin: Totally. I think Waze is a good example of this too which got bought out by Google. For years we saw those cars driving around, Google making maps of the world. I always make fun of my girlfriend because one time she called it Google Live View. I was like, I don't think that's real because if they're doing a live view that's definitely a violation of our privacy; but we call it Google Liveview just because it's funny. Their Google Maps and what they ere creating, laying the infrastructure of the vector format of GPS, Waze took that to a whole other level but Google could have made that.

To me if I was to go back to a startup Uber and I started to see Uber succeed if there was a way I could have bought Uber out as a taxi conglomerate in their first initial stage that would have been the best move that they could have made. Google said, okay Waze is a product that's successful, they've validated this, it's definitely going to continue to grow and be what it is. I use it all the time. Let's just buy out. There's this speed to market versus doing it themselves. As well as validating a concept or an idea. I always wonder that, if there was a taxi company big enough or maybe even a Toyota or something to just say Uber we're going to buy you for let's say $250 million before they actually became the $60 billion company that they were, and if they actually would have taken the acquisition. You just never know, right?

Suzanne: This is true. Three more questions for you.

Kellin: Whatever you need.

Suzanne: What advice would you give somebody? If someone's listening in and they're going, that's me, I'm that entrepreneurial spirit, I'm that bulldog. Forget my med school I'm going into product just like Kellin. What advice would you give to somebody who doesn't know the first place to start but has this drive, this spirit, they want to do this?

Kellin: Network. That is the one thing that has saved my ass over everything, being willing to reach out and talk to people. Be resourceful, read like crazy. Find the blogs that you think are interesting and that have an actual pull on the interest of products that you're looking at; but network. When I started my first company, and again had no idea what I was doing and was like a lost puppy I started to reach out to people on LinkedIn. Just cold messaging. I had almost like an internal CRM type platform that I used to track where I was in regards to conversation but it basically was sales. I would make it personal though. If I saw someone that was maybe head of product at Airbnb or VP of product I'd be like, yo I really love what you did-

Suzanne: Were you starting with yo by the way in writing? Just curious. Yo, ....

Kellin: I would just make it really personable. I'd do my research on them. I'd make it seem like I was their biggest fan. I would start commenting on these people's blogs.

Suzanne: Social selling.

Kellin: Oh yeah, 100 percent.

Suzanne: This is what we described as social selling.

Kellin: Exactly, social selling but I would honestly really try and hone in on the types of products that I was interested in, the people that were making moves in the space, and making a difference. Then honestly just try and create conversation and see if they'd have coffee with me and start discussing ideas. In my own advantage I had a company to offer; I'm trying to build something. You'd be surprised at how many people love to hear that you're a fan of what they've done. You're building them up to hopefully either be a part of something that you will create and have that kind of bragging right, but also I'm sure they had plenty of people in their own experience or history of product that helped them in their career.

I would say network as much as you can. There's a ton of resources in LA, General Assembly being one of the many places that I definitely will come hang out, just talk to people. As well as I think developers are a great resource to an extent. The biggest thing that I think in product management that I don't want to say determines a good or bad product manager but it just being able to communicate. You'll see people literally get fired for this. Being able to communicate effectively what's happening, what's not happening, how is it being accomplished, and why it's not being accomplished, and where we go from there. Finding problems to make solutions.

Developers are great because, I kind of feel bad saying it this way, they're sometimes a little pouty, this prima donna culture. I think we're moving away from that but if you can communicate with developers you will learn how they work, just how to build tech stacks, what it takes to build tech stacks; and if you can have that skill set from the ground up you are ready to be a product manager. The other stuff is easy to me. The ability to communicate, the ability to understand technology; how it flows, how it's built. The rest is icing on top of the cake but still just as important. To me your building block, if you start there the resting, the user experience stuff will come a lot easier if you're going to try and stay in technical product management. That's my two cents.

Suzanne: One of the things we're doing at 100 Product Manager we're having this great conversations, we're also trying to build. Phenomenally, at least as of this conversation, there really isn't one single place to go and learn about this field. That's part of our mission.

Kellin: It's funny that you say that, I literally had a conversation with another product manager the other day. He's like my devil's advocate, we just throw ideas at each other and he gives me all the reasons why it won't work and I give him all the reasons why it won't work. We are that initial Q&A I guess for early stage ideas and how it works. It's funny to me that I was like, I wish we could create a Tinder, but not, for finding product managers for projects. Like an e-commerce type, shared economy; I'm a product manager, here's what I specialize in, here's my projects, hire me. Being able to create a consulting freelance product management in an e-commerce type setting. Why isn't it happening? I don't know. Maybe because we're just not as mainstream as we should be yet.

Suzanne: No one's talking about it.

Kellin: Yeah.

Suzanne: That's part of the problem. One of the things that we're doing is we're building this comprehensive list of recommended resources. Originally I was like the reading list, that's my inherent bias I love to read. I'm dipping my toe in the waters here of the listening. Do you have a recommended book, podcast, blog? Some author or leader that you follow that you think if you don't know about this person and the ideas they're talking about ... It doesn't necessarily have to be in the product management space but just something that helps you.

Kellin: I think on an overall level most of my people that I follow are actually in private equity of all things. Only because I think a lot of the stakeholders that you deal with in product management are not just going to be the tech team but your stakeholders are going to be your executives that are only caring about certain things because they have goals to meet, deadlines to meet. They have certain metrics that they're trying to hit. When you look at these massive angel investors ... I follow a lot of angels. Mark [inaudible 00:50:54] is a good one. He's actually in LA. I am very involved with Matthew Goldman, or Goodman. Goodman? He's the CEO of Wallaby financial. Mucker Labs is one that I follow a lot. They're an early stage accelerator that has turned into almost a VC. They do a lot on their social media and whatnot.

I don't think that necessarily, for my personal take, following people is going to give you the best understanding of product management. What I try to do is, again, network into people that are doing it and also ask about their tools. If I can personally meet someone or create that relationship based on the people that I find and the products that I like ii want to know what tools they're using so that I can start playing with them myself. If there's any kind of books or types of books that I would recommend, Agile. Definitely. Agile from Type Methodology is the way that I do my own product management. I think that most smart companies are going that direction. The Lean Startup model is my bible. It's an amazing book and will give you a really overall comprehensive idea of how to build products in a lean environment.

I think it also really just depends on where you're trying to go. If you're trying to go into data and analytics or maybe AI type technology you want to be a product manager that focuses more on VR and gaming. These are the types of feels you should be looking for, any kind of blog, any kind of books that interest you. Just like in college you read all day long and it's great, you get a general oversight of what's happening but until you actually start talking to people that are doing it, and actually sit down on a computer and play with [inaudible 00:52:46] or play with Trello, or do whatever kind of product management and project management, and whatever else you think you're actually going to be doing, you're not going to actually really understand what's happening.

Even if it just means that you're trialing all these different products and you get on Sketch and you start to play with wire frames and ask questions in forums, and figure this out. You don't have to come from a corporate company. You could be a total scrappy just really well rounded person who understand what it takes to be a product manager and I honestly believe that the right person will find you and you can definitely build products.

Suzanne: Is there a tool then in all of your canvasing for what everyone's using? What's the most exciting tool that you just got introduced to?

Kellin: I feel like I've been using a lot of well known tools recently but I will say that it was actually a marketing product and it was SumoMe. It's basically just a marketing analytics or web analytics platform that was a better experience for me in regards to heat mapping. They have a multitude of widgets that go into landing pages. I think they're on the cutting edge of the initial validation of the types of markets you're trying to test. They have the most amazing tool I've seen to quantitatively assess that. As a product manager I've been pushing for them. They're also really cheap; they're really cost effective. There are many other tools that do that, they're not the only ones.

I think that's something that you'll fine too, there are sections or types of things you have to really hit and make sure you monitor as your metrics. Google Analytics is probably one of the big ones for web. Then you have something like Kiss metrics. You want to do heat mapping even just through iTunes connect for mobile a lot of the app analytics you can really hone in on. App Annie, how you're doing your keywords, there's optimization. All these other things and there are always going to be 15 to 20 companies that are all doing these things. I don't have an exact tool that I would say this is what I'm using and that I'm super fond of, or that I've been introduced to.

There's always new tools, find the ones that work for you. Find the ones that are going to make you the most effective; find the ones that are going to keep you on track with your goals, as well as your team's goals, as well as your stakeholder's goals and you will be fine. Most people don't care what you're doing every single day. Your success is literally measured on the success of your product. I think that if you can be cost effective, have the respect of everyone involved, and really keep that overall long term vision you will be successful.

Suzanne: Do you have a quote or mantra that's your startup vitamin, goes on a mug? When you build that huge empire that we talked about.

Kellin: Yeah. I played softball in college and there's actually two of them that I take to heart. I think this is more of an early stage type founder which can go through all things; developer, product manager, executive. Whatever you're doing what you put into it you're going to get out of it. Simple, right? As well as take care of the little things. If you focus on all of these massive epics or these larger scheme goals and you forget that there's a button that's not getting ... Someone through the funnel, or whatnot, it may honestly create massive problems down the road. If you do it right the first time great, but that's not always a guarantee. If you continue to take care of the little things and just understand that every little thing matters in what you're doing; how even you're writing an email or how you're approaching your team, all of this affects the success of this product...